First, this seems to me an oversimplification. I am not arguing against the importance of modesty but Victoria's Secret simply does not have "pictures of women showing their private parts". When I see or hear a phrase such as "pictures of women showing their private parts" I immediately think "pornography" as that is the accepted definition of the term. Objectively speaking (and we need more of this in Christian circles) the female models are all clothed, albeit skimpily. Thus presenting Victoria's Secret as a company that shows pornography in its stores is simply being dishonest.

Secondly, the author is mixing two very different situations that the Bible treats as distinct. Yes, "the Bible teaches us that we should dress and behave modestly" in *public*. However in *private* and within the bounds of the marriage bedroom, going even so far as being fully unclothed is perfectly acceptable and even encouraged. (and necessary!) As Scott says, "God is very pro-sex" and He is. This important distinction was not made in the post.

So which camp is Victoria's Secret in? I confess I've been in the store several times. All of them were with my wife save one occasion when I was buying her a present. I think the store is certainly very controversial, (and this is done on purpose for marketing reasons) but they do not deal in pornography. They sell their products to people who expect to be in intimate, private relations with one another not to people planning to be out in public.

I can appreciate Scott's need to go along with his daughters' understanding of this complex issue, but I don't think the same logic should hold when engaging an audience of adults as in this post. Ultimately, I do not find Victoria's Secret offensive for being pornographic as stated and alluded to in this post. (Note that this does *not* mean they aren't offensive to me, just not for being pornographic or promoting public displays of immodesty.)

Curtis

As far as Mark stated about the definition of “modesty” changing over time, I can see some of it yes. But I refuse to accept, or let my children accept that we should change our views based on society.

All to often people find themselves in the trap of “oh its not so bad, things used to be like x” .. In reality this is exactly the thought process Satan wants us to have…

If he pushed to go from “veil” to “Bikini” it would have been rejected immediately! We cannot let ourselves give in to the temptation of “oh, well its not so bad” in the end it is our souls, and the souls of our children that are in jeopardy.

Sadly this translates to every area of life… We find that the options of tv shows/movies to watch is diminished when you take into account what is deemed acceptable… In the late 90′s they started allowing partial nudity in PG-13 movies! I find this a disgusting practice! The only way things will keep from getting worse is if we do stand up and say “No, that is not acceptable”.

I am sure that the moderate dress of my daugther would be shocking to my grandparents were they alive, just as their moderate dress was likely offensive to their elders. I am fairly confident that I will shake my head in dismay as I see the attire of my grandchildren. I don’t think it is a coincidence that what we view as conservative was most likely not in the eyes of our parents.

Perhaps the tolerence level of modesty is not a fixed point on the fashion scale – could it simply be a variable difference in the relationship between the common standard of acceptability and conservative “stepping back” as to not push the envelope too far? Or, is there a line drawn in the sand? A line we have been slowly approaching over centuries and millenia? Something certainly worth thinking about.

Now, I’m not talking about a white-washed tomb. It’s possible to look good on the outside and having a rotting inner-life, but that’s another blog post.

So, with the question of modesty, I hope we don’t interpret that as getting all frump’d out! I do believe we can be modest and fashionable. I think the key is to make sure we are covered up! Someone once told me a good rule of thumb (and forgive me boys for getting specific here…) is to make sure you are covered up three-sideways-fingers-wide from your cleavage! LOL. And I forget what the skirt/short length recommendation was… above the knee? And I think we need to pay attention to the fit of our clothes.

Here’s my bottom line: be intentional about what we’re wearing. Look good and be smart. We’re totally capable of that, because we’re capable women!

Prov. 31, baby!

Hope this helps the discussion!